In class we were speaking about how many of the characters are drinking wine in the last scene and about wine in religious terms such as in the last super where Jesus speaks of wine being his blood to his twelve disciples. I noticed that there are thirteen characters in the play or Thomasina and twelve others. Perhaps this suggests that Thomasina is a kind of prophet leading the way for the future and that the twelve other characters are like disciples or the twelve people closest in contact to her or her history. Septimus also refers to Thomasina as being a prophet to an author at one point in this scene.
Another thing which i found interesting was the way in which Stoppard uses Gus/Augustus in scene seven. The way in which Augustus takes the drawing of Septimus and Gus brings it back to Hannah and because of the same actor playing both parts suggests that Gus is a character linking the two times together. I like the way that he doesn't speak because it seems like he cant because he knows the truth of the past and if he could he would reveal them. This would take away all the discovery from Hannah and Bernard and the basis of the play. Its as if Stoppard is suggesting with Gus' silence that Gus is connected to the past or a genius who could have tied the whole thing up from the start perhaps like a playwright .
Sadie and I were discussing today the importance of the title for both plays. We felt that in Arcadia the title reflects the general theme of paradise and paradise lost. Subsequently we realised that this was also true of the importance of being earnest as its theme is that of honesty and being earnest. Just a thought from Sadie and Katie
sadie and i were also looking at this information on waltzs. and thought it might be helpful to everyone as it gives some background information. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waltz
I was thinking about how Septimus' name is similar to serpent - particularly in reference to Paradise Lost, genesis etc. It's like Septimus is the one who tempts Thomasina into knowledge, experience, teaches her about sex -and then she has to leave Arcadia. However, I think Thomasina relatively responsible for herself as she asks Septimus about carnal embrace, and tells him to kiss her.
I was thinking about names - Hannah has a palindromic name, I thought that might represent the type of person she is. She is quite methodical and to do with the enlightenment, and that could be reflected in the structured form of her name. I also thought her name could reflect views on time and predetermination etc. - whichever way you go, you get the same thing (hannah). That would therefore support predetermination as no matter what happens you will get the same result - it is fated. Sorry for the long comment.
I have a stupid point Does septimus ask if the hermitage is big enough for a piano BEFORE thomasina dies beacsue he's realised that he's about to be chucked out (because Thomasina is old enough to get married) and he wants to create a bachelor pad? I think so. He's cool like that. And does this also make him the ruler of Arcadia (because he has permenant residence there)? And the way things turn out- with him going mad and everything- perhaps indicate that God is mad too.
Mary's comments are very interesting, despite her self-deprecating preface. I'd rather hear others but feel tantalised and so I will glibly reflect that, at least in my reading, he accepts Newton's deterministic universe; I encourage you to incorporate his hypocrisy and self-seeking gratuity search in your discussion.
I just wrote a massive comment, but the blog messed it up. I'll sum it up...ish
in response the mary maybe rather than being God, septimus is the devil in arcadia. like the painting, 'even in aracdia' there is evil/death etc. also, as grace says, his name is much like 'serpent' from the garden of eden. ie) the devil. Perhaps thomasina's death, is simillar to the fall of eve, as she dies when she gains knowledge, and losses her innocence. perhaps, the death of thomasina, is the cause of Septimus' later retire to the hermitage. it is as if he has been banished from Arcadia, from heaven to hell. As we know septimus does mad, so its as if he is being tortured in hell, due to the death of thomasina (symbolic).
The reference to the piano (where he asks if it could fit into the hermitage): It seems in scene 7 that the piano is Thomasina's inner emotions being expressed, at the beginning of the play its played clumisly, and not well, showing lack of knowledge, and by the end of the play, the music is fluent from the paino. this shows the development of Thomasina's quest for knowledge, like eve in the garden of eden. Perhaps the piano therefore symbolises thomasina, and the fact that there is a piano in the herimtage is like Thomasina is with Septimus, or even haunts him. As we know he is driven to madness by her equations and theories, so her presence remains with him, and torments him?
also the piano is often present in scenes of a sexual nature, or when the characters passions are arising. So it being in scene 7 may be creating suspense from Thomasina and Septimus' kiss.
Also!... What Katie & Sadie said... I looked up waltz and it was speaking about how the dance is a 'turning one' - rotating rather than going stragiht forward without turning'. This could be symbolic of the way in which Stoppard writes, and the use of epochs. Stoppard in the play allows things to be uprooted, rediscovered, undiscovered, and burried away. There seems to be a constant cycle of events, and knowledge which is looked at in both the present and past. The waltz empahsises these links, and shows the way that Stoppard doesnt write chronologically, and doesnt seem to belief that life goes in a straight line, from start to finish, from past to present. Stoppard merges the two and repeats thing/events/characters/scenes in the play - cycle.
:) I realised, and sorry if I'm just repeating what someone else has said.
But, i noticed that music plays an important part throughout the whole play, and when Hannah and Valentine are talking about Thomasina (page 61) "a monkey and a typewriter" "Yes, well a piano" and then later on page 63 in the stage direction "the piano is heard again"
didn't really know if it meant anything, but thought the piano was linked to Thomasina :)
Arcadia links to Greek tragedy in some ways, for example, no violence is performed on-stage. Also, Greek tragedies tended to be set in remote locations away from daily life; in this way, Arcadia is set at Sidley Park, away from the city life. Greek tragedy was involved in the religious festival for Dionysus/Bacchus, god of wine. There are several references to wine in Arcadia. Thomasina speaks of "Two hundred at least by Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides” (pg 50) - these were the three major tragic playwrights of Ancient Greece - Aeschylus was called the 'father of tragedy'. There are also references to mute characters in Greek tragedy - In ‘The Oresteia’ by Aeschylus Pylades only speaks once. In Arcadia, Gus never speaks.
This might be nothing, but I was thinking about names again, and I noticed that both Valentine and Bernard can both have 'saint' before them - St Valentine and St Bernard. A St Bernard, as a rescue dog, is trained to look for something which may be reflected in Bernard's character. Also, if genius is finding things not where they're looked for, this could indicate that Bernard is the opposite of genius as he spands his time at Sidley Park deliberaely searching for things. There also were several Saint Bernards. St Valentine, on the other hand, has connotations with love, maybe indicating his nature. Also, Ezra is a book in the Bible. All these things suggest religious influences but might be totally insignificant.
Nothing is insignificant, Natasha! Excellent observations. How can we expand on their relevance and move towards a cohesive line of argument regarding Stoppard's intentions in these examples? How can we thread these lines of thought into either of the other two texts? What Greek theatre can be seen in Earnest, for example?
In response to what Natasha said about Greek references, we also see the idea of worship of dionysus in scene 7, when thomasina comes on in a secretative manner - the meetings of the bacchae were held in private - also she is barefoot, which symblosies the wildness of the bacchae, and aminalistic like traits. also this links to wuthering heights where cathy is bare foot by the window, and so forth.
Where do you reckon Septimus' philosophy lies - do you think he is Romantic or part of the Enlightenment or rational way of thinking? I want to put this in my essay so please help me!
Ummm, I'd always thought a romantic compared with Thomasina. Like Bernard vs. Hanah is romantic vs. enlightenment - but this falls apart if you look at it too deeply, sorry that's not very helpful!
I was thinking a bit about the fact that everything seems to happen offstage in Arcadia, because this is almost opposite to what happens in Wuthering Heights. Things that ought not to happen in Eden (and don't happen in Arcadia) happen at the Heights. So if Sidley Park is Arcadia, maybe the Heights is where Adam and Eve are left post-fall? A place with pain and suffering etc, but still hope (as in Hareton and Catherine's marriage atoning for some of the previous behaviour).
Natasha, Septimus' philosophy is complicated and seemingly contradictory; I think that this in itself is a useful observation. He very rarely speaks openly, as he is facetious and manipulative. It is worth locating any examples where you feel that he is being frank or nearly frank and considering what leads him to be so: whose presence is he in? What is the topic of discussion? What events have just happened etc.
Grace, the structure of the narrative in Wuthering Heights is actually very Greek, when you think about it, because nothing happens 'on stage' except for the conversation between Lockwood and Nelly. In this way, Nelly is a kind of Greek messenger who, personally, I totally distrust. We only hear her version of events and much of what she offers is remembered fragments of other peoples' recollections. Just a thought.
19 comments:
In class we were speaking about how many of the characters are drinking wine in the last scene and about wine in religious terms such as in the last super where Jesus speaks of wine being his blood to his twelve disciples. I noticed that there are thirteen characters in the play or Thomasina and twelve others. Perhaps this suggests that Thomasina is a kind of prophet leading the way for the future and that the twelve other characters are like disciples or the twelve people closest in contact to her or her history. Septimus also refers to Thomasina as being a prophet to an author at one point in this scene.
Another thing which i found interesting was the way in which Stoppard uses Gus/Augustus in scene seven. The way in which Augustus takes the drawing of Septimus and Gus brings it back to Hannah and because of the same actor playing both parts suggests that Gus is a character linking the two times together. I like the way that he doesn't speak because it seems like he cant because he knows the truth of the past and if he could he would reveal them. This would take away all the discovery from Hannah and Bernard and the basis of the play. Its as if Stoppard is suggesting with Gus' silence that Gus is connected to the past or a genius who could have tied the whole thing up from the start perhaps like a playwright .
Sadie and I were discussing today the importance of the title for both plays. We felt that in Arcadia the title reflects the general theme of paradise and paradise lost. Subsequently we realised that this was also true of the importance of being earnest as its theme is that of honesty and being earnest.
Just a thought
from Sadie and Katie
sadie and i were also looking at this information on waltzs. and thought it might be helpful to everyone as it gives some background information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waltz
Katie and Sadie
(again)
I was thinking about how Septimus' name is similar to serpent - particularly in reference to Paradise Lost, genesis etc. It's like Septimus is the one who tempts Thomasina into knowledge, experience, teaches her about sex -and then she has to leave Arcadia. However, I think Thomasina relatively responsible for herself as she asks Septimus about carnal embrace, and tells him to kiss her.
I was thinking about names - Hannah has a palindromic name, I thought that might represent the type of person she is. She is quite methodical and to do with the enlightenment, and that could be reflected in the structured form of her name. I also thought her name could reflect views on time and predetermination etc. - whichever way you go, you get the same thing (hannah). That would therefore support predetermination as no matter what happens you will get the same result - it is fated. Sorry for the long comment.
I have a stupid point
Does septimus ask if the hermitage is big enough for a piano BEFORE thomasina dies beacsue he's realised that he's about to be chucked out (because Thomasina is old enough to get married) and he wants to create a bachelor pad?
I think so. He's cool like that.
And does this also make him the ruler of Arcadia (because he has permenant residence there)?
And the way things turn out- with him going mad and everything- perhaps indicate that God is mad too.
Mary's comments are very interesting, despite her self-deprecating preface. I'd rather hear others but feel tantalised and so I will glibly reflect that, at least in my reading, he accepts Newton's deterministic universe; I encourage you to incorporate his hypocrisy and self-seeking gratuity search in your discussion.
I just wrote a massive comment, but the blog messed it up. I'll sum it up...ish
in response the mary
maybe rather than being God, septimus is the devil in arcadia. like the painting, 'even in aracdia' there is evil/death etc.
also, as grace says, his name is much like 'serpent' from the garden of eden. ie) the devil. Perhaps thomasina's death, is simillar to the fall of eve, as she dies when she gains knowledge, and losses her innocence. perhaps, the death of thomasina, is the cause of Septimus' later retire to the hermitage. it is as if he has been banished from Arcadia, from heaven to hell.
As we know septimus does mad, so its as if he is being tortured in hell, due to the death of thomasina (symbolic).
The reference to the piano (where he asks if it could fit into the hermitage):
It seems in scene 7 that the piano is Thomasina's inner emotions being expressed, at the beginning of the play its played clumisly, and not well, showing lack of knowledge, and by the end of the play, the music is fluent from the paino. this shows the development of Thomasina's quest for knowledge, like eve in the garden of eden.
Perhaps the piano therefore symbolises thomasina, and the fact that there is a piano in the herimtage is like Thomasina is with Septimus, or even haunts him. As we know he is driven to madness by her equations and theories, so her presence remains with him, and torments him?
also the piano is often present in scenes of a sexual nature, or when the characters passions are arising. So it being in scene 7 may be creating suspense from Thomasina and Septimus' kiss.
Also!...
What Katie & Sadie said...
I looked up waltz and it was speaking about how the dance is a 'turning one' - rotating rather than going stragiht forward without turning'. This could be symbolic of the way in which Stoppard writes, and the use of epochs.
Stoppard in the play allows things to be uprooted, rediscovered, undiscovered, and burried away. There seems to be a constant cycle of events, and knowledge which is looked at in both the present and past.
The waltz empahsises these links, and shows the way that Stoppard doesnt write chronologically, and doesnt seem to belief that life goes in a straight line, from start to finish, from past to present.
Stoppard merges the two and repeats thing/events/characters/scenes in the play - cycle.
sorry if none of this makes sense.
:)
I realised, and sorry if I'm just repeating what someone else has said.
But, i noticed that music plays an important part throughout the whole play, and when Hannah and Valentine are talking about Thomasina (page 61) "a monkey and a typewriter" "Yes, well a piano" and then later on page 63 in the stage direction "the piano is heard again"
didn't really know if it meant anything, but thought the piano was linked to Thomasina :)
Arcadia links to Greek tragedy in some ways, for example, no violence is performed on-stage. Also, Greek tragedies tended to be set in remote locations away from daily life; in this way, Arcadia is set at Sidley Park, away from the city life. Greek tragedy was involved in the religious festival for Dionysus/Bacchus, god of wine. There are several references to wine in Arcadia. Thomasina speaks of "Two hundred at least by Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides” (pg 50) - these were the three major tragic playwrights of Ancient Greece - Aeschylus was called the 'father of tragedy'. There are also references to mute characters in Greek tragedy - In ‘The Oresteia’ by Aeschylus Pylades only speaks once. In Arcadia, Gus never speaks.
This might be nothing, but I was thinking about names again, and I noticed that both Valentine and Bernard can both have 'saint' before them - St Valentine and St Bernard. A St Bernard, as a rescue dog, is trained to look for something which may be reflected in Bernard's character. Also, if genius is finding things not where they're looked for, this could indicate that Bernard is the opposite of genius as he spands his time at Sidley Park deliberaely searching for things. There also were several Saint Bernards. St Valentine, on the other hand, has connotations with love, maybe indicating his nature. Also, Ezra is a book in the Bible. All these things suggest religious influences but might be totally insignificant.
Nothing is insignificant, Natasha! Excellent observations. How can we expand on their relevance and move towards a cohesive line of argument regarding Stoppard's intentions in these examples? How can we thread these lines of thought into either of the other two texts? What Greek theatre can be seen in Earnest, for example?
In response to what Natasha said about Greek references,
we also see the idea of worship of dionysus in scene 7, when thomasina comes on in a secretative manner - the meetings of the bacchae were held in private - also she is barefoot, which symblosies the wildness of the bacchae, and aminalistic like traits. also this links to wuthering heights where cathy is bare foot by the window, and so forth.
You lot are so perceptive! I love this blog!
Where do you reckon Septimus' philosophy lies - do you think he is Romantic or part of the Enlightenment or rational way of thinking? I want to put this in my essay so please help me!
Ummm, I'd always thought a romantic compared with Thomasina. Like Bernard vs. Hanah is romantic vs. enlightenment - but this falls apart if you look at it too deeply, sorry that's not very helpful!
I was thinking a bit about the fact that everything seems to happen offstage in Arcadia, because this is almost opposite to what happens in Wuthering Heights. Things that ought not to happen in Eden (and don't happen in Arcadia) happen at the Heights. So if Sidley Park is Arcadia, maybe the Heights is where Adam and Eve are left post-fall? A place with pain and suffering etc, but still hope (as in Hareton and Catherine's marriage atoning for some of the previous behaviour).
Natasha, Septimus' philosophy is complicated and seemingly contradictory; I think that this in itself is a useful observation. He very rarely speaks openly, as he is facetious and manipulative. It is worth locating any examples where you feel that he is being frank or nearly frank and considering what leads him to be so: whose presence is he in? What is the topic of discussion? What events have just happened etc.
Grace, the structure of the narrative in Wuthering Heights is actually very Greek, when you think about it, because nothing happens 'on stage' except for the conversation between Lockwood and Nelly. In this way, Nelly is a kind of Greek messenger who, personally, I totally distrust. We only hear her version of events and much of what she offers is remembered fragments of other peoples' recollections. Just a thought.
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